Sunday, August 19, 2007

Most Accurate Bible Translation Question on Jeopardy with Alex Trebek and Jehovah's Witnesses Apparent Continual Spreading of this Myth, +Jason BeDuhn

WOW, I have gotten so many, I repeat MANY searches directed to this blog on this question. I did a quick search myself and discovered that my blog is the second in line on GOOGLE on this subject.

You can check the archives for this blog for the email forward I received from my cousin. He is a Jehovah's Witness, and apparently received this email from someone else, likely a JW also. Seeing all of you here leads me to believe you either got the same email or one similar.

Now, I'd love to go into just how many issues I have with the New World Translation of the Bible, however, there are just so many questionable verses, it would be exhausting to explore them all. This is a quick and simple post, so please don't leave a bunch of comments about how I've not done my research.

Many well educated scholars have called the NWT a poor translation, a woeful mistranslation, and a few other choice words I'll not mention here. Some others, very minor controversial scholars have praised it kinda. For instance, an Arizonan professor, Dr. Jason BeDuhn recently wrote a book in which he praised the NWT as the best translation. This is what you might have heard about in those annoying email forwards. This would be a compelling case, however Dr. BeDuhn also had some sharp criticism toward the NWT for it's insertion of Jehovah into the text where it otherwise does not exist. You would not know this however because Jehovah's Witnesses don't point that out for obvious reasons. I could provide a list, but facts are, BeDuhn is in the minority opinion, extreme minority.

Anyway, on to the issue of the Jeopardy Question.

I cannot find any evidence that the question about whether the most accurate version of the Bible is on Jeopardy ever occurred. Honestly, I don't expect to. I seriously doubt a secular game show would ever touch the question. Surely, if such a question ever existed, (I recieved the email months ago) it would have appeared on YouTube by now, which it hasn't, and you can do your own search, but I didn't find it.

So, is the NWT the most accurate "translation" of the Bible? In a word, no.

Why? Very simple. It is not true to the words in the original text. You see, I'd have much less discomfort with Witnesses and their bible if they simply translated the text true to the words and then took their own meaning from it. This however, is not what they do, they translate a meaning into the text when that is not the role of translation. Here's an example: John 8:58. Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I am." Look at the "I am" part. That's the key. You see, that is a direct allusion to Exodus 3:14 where Moses asks God what his name is and he says "I am." The NWT changes both of these, John to "I have been" and Exodus to "I shall prove to be." The problem is that the very same I am that Jesus uses in this case is the very same I am that he uses when he says I am the way, I am the truth, I am the life, and I am the good Shepherd among others, even in the same chapter. You see, the pharisees and such knew that Jesus was claiming to be God when he said that, that's why they tried to kill him. And that single verse represents everything that I dislike about the NWT. It's not simple prejudice or some misguided religious fanaticism, the NWT is simply not true to the words of the text, forget what the text means, it's not true to the words of the text. There are 237 examples specifically. The divine name never appears in any manuscript of the New Testament, but it appears in the NWT 237 times. It's not in the originals, therefore it should not be there. It's as simple as that.

So what is a good version of the Bible to read? Just about any one that suits you except the NWT. I myself prefer the English Standard Version, because it tries to follow the subtle nuances of the original text even following some grammatical errors. There are a few places where I disagree with the translation because of the use of specific words or phrases which I think are significant, but even in those places, it still has the notes at the bottom that says what the word for word translation or alternate translations are. Otherwise, if you'd like to get a good idea of the original text, or just a good read, get a parallel edition that has two to four versions side by side. But honestly, any version that does not confuse the reader with ancient language (KJV) or obscure the truth (NWT) is a good version. It used to be that people complained about the KJV because you couldn't understand it, but that is no longer an excuse.

So that's all I got to say about that, for now. Keep studying, keep checking. Email forwards are almost invariably dishonest. No Jeopardy question by Alex Trebek, Jason BeDuhn is in the minority opinion, and the New World Translation is NOT the most accurate "translation" of the Bible. Much more to be said, but this is just a quick post that explores a single verse, and points out the obviousness of the Jeopardy! question. Please do read other posts on the subject, there are several.

WiredForStereo

83 comments:

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Anonymous said...

In the NWT's list of translators there was no one who was a capable scholar in koine greek, which is of course the language the NT was originally written. The major problem in the NWT is the errors in their translation of the NT greek text where they've made pretty blatant mistakes in order to fit their own doctrine. It's not the multitude of errors that is the issue, it's the fact that they've contorted the essential scriptures which proof text Jesus Christ's divinity/deity. I am no greek scholar and I can point out the JW's mistranslations in my copy of the recieved text. Jesus Christ is the manifestation of the Godhead bodily, hence He is the King of kings, Lord of lords, the name above all names. AMEN

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WiredForStereo said...

Yes, there have been a bunch of comments removed. I removed them because of the tone they had been taking and I wasn't comfortable with it. I have also edited the post to be less inflammatory so this kind of thing will be less likely to happen again.

Please, no name calling, no insults, no profanity, and please do not post if you have not read the entire post and every comment.

Anonymous said...

all I have to say is 2 cor. 4:4

Johna P said...

Sorry you received so many inflammatory posts -- good article and with a little research you can clearly see that your reason behind rejecting the NWT is fact-based, not just an opinion. Good explanation, and thanks for the specifics.

Anonymous said...

hi my name is hector and here is what i have briefly say on this topic cause of my short amount of time:
that was all an opinion..... very unsatisfying ... because believe it or not, gods name does appear in the original text, u just have to look very closely, but right now i just passing thru and ill leave my email address for any questions on the matter
hector_rodriguez014@yahoo.com

WiredForStereo said...

Actually, no, it does not. Not in the Greek scriptures anywhere.

Linz said...

I have a question for you WiredForStereo, Do you believe that the dead sea scrolls hold any value? In your post, you mention the most accurate bible to you would be the earliest, right? So would the dead sea scrolls qualify?
Sorry for the 3rd time posting... I was reading them all & then saw the others were not commented by you recently. I;ll check back for your words Thanks!

WiredForStereo said...

Yes, the Dead Sea Scrolls have value, they are another piece of evidence in the greater body of evidence. However, they are not the oldest. Nor do they contain the New Testament. Nor do they completely agree 100% with other versions of the manuscripts. They do most substantially support the scripture that exists to us.

They are a good source, but they are no more accurate than any other copy of the original.

Is that what you were looking for?

Anonymous said...

um... you think that Jesus claimed to be god? really?? Really?? So when he said 'my father', he was really talking about himself? When he prayed to his FATHER he was really praying to HIMSELF?? Really? Does that make ANY sense? Really? Goodness, I think that shows how ignorant this post is and how much you just dont know.

Also, to say something like "So what is a good version of the Bible to read? Just about any one that suits you except the NWT" is SO SO SO SO SO insane. I actually laughed out loud when I read that. ANYYYY Bible is fine, but not that one... like that makes any sense at all. Like the fiercely edited catholic bible? Like the made up mormon bible? If you're ok with those bibles, you're so so mislead.

Just looking at how many comments you deleted proves how close minded you are and how you refuse to even consider any other point of view other than your own. I'm sure their tone matched that of your blogs. I take you for a pouting kid like, "If they don't play by MY rules, I don't want to play with them AT ALL" and then you frump into your room and refuse to come out until your mother offers you ice cream.

You also say things like, "there are many mistranslations in the jw bible but I wont go into them right now." Like we should just take your word? A guy with a blogger blog? Again, I'm laughing.

I am not a witness but theirs is indeed the best translation - do your research.

WiredForStereo said...

This is exactly the reason why I deleted all those comments. I don't need this kind of abuse.

You don't know me, you don't know what I'm all about, so you can say whatever you want, but that doesn't make it true.

Ridiculing people doesn't prove your point, and I'll say it again, if you like the NWT, you ARE a JW. Even though you're on the internet, lying is still wrong.

P.S. that's Oneness theology, not Trinitarian, do your research.

Anonymous said...

erm...you have to be baptized to be considered a witness - I'm not baptized or associated with the jw's - don't call people who aren't lying liars (not very christian, is it?)... and your post was abusive so expect your comments to be abusive - you made sweeping assumptions and just gave your opinion - I was a part of christendom for years and saw so many things wrong with it - it was more of a business than a religion.

Try studying one of their books using YOUR OWN bible and maybe that might give you a better understanding of what the bible teaches.

Why does the NIV take out Gods name? Doesn't that bother you?

Do you celebrate Christmas even though the holiday has pagan origins? Doesn't THAT bother you? Christmas was placed on December 25 to correspond with the Roman solar holiday Dies Natalis Solis Invicti and was therefore a "paganization" that debased the true church. Doesn't that bother you?

Does it bother you when in the middle of worshiping God they pass around a money basket?

I don't think you know enough about Jehovah's Witnesses to talk this talk.

WiredForStereo said...

Ok, I'll play your game.

Not abusive, pretty factual actually.

I do study their books with my Bible, that's how I know they don't have the truth.

The NIV doesn't take out God's name, it simply uses a different translation of the word. NWT adds God's name where it doesn't belong.

I am not scared of the origins of anything. If I celebrate Jesus' birth, that is between Jesus and me, even if I don't have the correct day. My car has its origins in Japan, it doesn't mean anything. What bothers me is that every 50 years or so a new cult comes around and tries to claim they have the new light.

Everything I do is worship, when exactly are they supposed to pass the basket? I do have the choice to not put anything in if I decide.

I don't think you have any idea what you're doing here. Also, I don't know why you're here either.

Anonymous said...

ohhh, nevermind then. If you don't care what the origins are of the holidays you celebrate, that really shows what kind of person you are. I celebrate the birth of Christ EVERY day. The rest of the world is only one day a year... sad. Also, I don't know what I'm doing at a "JESUS FREAK BLOG" THAT RECOMENDS HARRY POTTER BOOKS! goodness, have you no shame? Witchcraft is not really approved in ANY bible. And I can hear you now: "But im not DOING witchcraft"... people like you set low standards for themselvs and for their religion. It's too bad, but no, I'm not coming back, this blog is sick. I'm sure God is grateful that you're recomending witchcraft books on a blog thats supposedly devoted to Him. (Note the sarcasm)

WiredForStereo said...

You're not paying attention.

I didn't say I didnt care about the origins of holidays, I said they don't scare me like they obviously do you. Yes it shows what kind of person I am, I'm not scared.

I don't recommend witchcraft books, I just liked a couple of novels, that's novel, as in fiction, as in not real. I don't see any purpose of witchcraft books, witchcraft has no power, so again, I'm not scared. If you're scared of witchcraft, you should really check in with Jesus and see who has the power in this universe.

I do understand sarcasm, and be assured, you aren't the first to leave a nasty comment and then swear never to come back. This is what I get for criticising a cult who worships a god who is not a god of love and compassion. This is the kind of stuff that I deleted all those comments for. All I want to do is have a nice calm reasoned conversation and instead I get a diatribe that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Harry Potter and holidays are mentioned nowhere in this post.

It's people like you that make people like me not want to talk to people like you. I've done nothing to you and have gotten assailed on rediculous superstitious grounds. Wake up. This world is obviously not as you think it is. No sarcasm here.

Anonymous said...

Why argue and criticize one another on this blog? God will rid the earth of wicked people who don't want to listen to him and who want to take issue with every little thing just like he did in Noah's day. This blog does nothing more than prove Bible prophecy to be true no matter what translation you use. It proves where we are in the stream of time 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Any person can come to an accurate understanding of the scriptures no matter what translation they use if that's what they are truly seeking. You and many who respond just want to be right not actually learn what is right. The only reason for this blog is you do not like Jehovah's Witnesses plain and simple. So what! Who are you? One thing for sure you will have to answer to someone far higher than yourself...God AND Christ. Yikes, I wouldn't want to be you at that time.

WiredForStereo said...

Just because I simply don't like Jehovah's Witnesses?

Wow.

Anything else? Because that was a little weak and still completely off topic. I do like Jehovah's Witnesses, they are good honest people. Unfortunately they are completely honest but completely wrong. It's the twisting of God's word that I don't like, it has nothing to do with the people. I started talking about this stuff on this blog because my cousin is a JW, and I like him, but he's wrong, and I figured there were a bunch of other people out there who are questioning what Witnesses have told them, so I blog about it.

I think you guys should really come up with other methods beside personal insults. I'd rather think good things about you and disagree with you than disagree with you and think bad things about you because you're mean. We can do this politely, I've been doing my best, but naturally, it's hard when people are insulting you.

Anonymous said...

Wiredforstereo,do you know the meaning of the word "hypocrite"? Because that's what you are. Do you know what the word "apostate" means? Because again that's what you are. In your original blog you clearly and boldly abused JW's as well as the NWT. Do you really think that people need your blogs to help them to find the answers regarding any confusion they may have as to what they were told by JW's? If they are confused about what a JW says who has accurately studied the bible and more than likely engaged in a religion prior to JW's, what makes you think that someone like you, who does not have accurate knowledge, can give them true bible based answers? Last but not least, this is what I will leave you with: 2Timothy 2:14 Keep reminding them of these things, charging them before God as witness, not to fight about words, a thing of no usefulness at all because it overturns those listening. 15 Do your utmost to present yourself approved to God, a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of the truth aright. 16 But shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, 19 For all that, the solid foundation of God stays standing, having this seal: “Jehovah knows those who belong to him,” and: “Let everyone naming the name of Jehovah renounce unrighteousness.”

And just in case you have something to say about these scriptures I am going to leave you with one more that states this: Romans 15:4 For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope. 5 Now may the God who supplies endurance and comfort grant YOU to have among yourselves the same mental attitude that Christ Jesus had, 6 that with one accord YOU may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You say that you do not have anything against JW's, yet, you attempt to discredit the NWT, the bible published by JW's. Furthermore, what is the difference in what you say and I saying to you I do not have anything against you, BUT, I can not stand you moma because she is fat and ugly. You see, the point is, you do not realize that what you said was very offensive and very inaccurate. Wow, an inaccurate person trying to discredit a bible by calling it inaccurate, does that make sense? When you have THOROUGHLY taken in accurate knowledge of the bible, researched and studied other bibles, or the bible's origin from the beginning and religions as well as meditated and prayed on the matter,then you can make comments/blogs like the first one, because then you could actually give accurate proof to your sayings. But until then, your words are nothing more than your personal opinion and you should state as much. No one needs you to clarify anything for them as far as the NWT is concerned. There are people like ministers/preachers who they can turn to that are way more experienced and professional than you are to handle these matters.

You are so misguided. Why not encourage people to study the bible for themselves to see whether or not they believe it's accuracy. In addition, the "Dead Sea Scrolls" are one the most accurate copies of the bible around today and they do include Jehovah's name several times. One more point, did you know that the Jewish bible contains God's name, Jehovah, YHWH, 7,000 times. How is that for accuracy?

This is an insert from a website, http://web.archive.org/web/20071218010255/mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworldtranslation/home.htm, that just really summons it up for all: Criticisms of the New World Translation should not be surprising. In Jesus' day, he and his followers were the object of criticism, ridicule and abuse. This was more often than not from religious leaders and men. Those who were 'looked up to' and respected as being learned men.(Jn.7:45-49) Likewise today Jehovah's Witnesses are sometimes the object of criticism, ridicule and abuse. Not least their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. This does not mean that any scholar or interested person should not be able to take issue with the renderings as found in the New World Translation or any other translation. This clearly should not be the case. But it behoves those that do so to do so in a manner that is an effort to seek out the truth and in a way that is scholarly, honest and fair. Unfortunately this has hardly been the case in the past with regard to the New World Translation. One such writer, David Dewey, in his book "Which Bible? A Guide to English Translations" (Inter-Varsity Press, 2004)dismisses the New World Translation solely on Trinitarian grounds and suggests that it should not be on anyone's "Christmas list"! We strongly disagree. We would suggest not only putting it on a 'Christmas list' but not waiting for such a time to acquire this translation for your self or as a gift to your friends!

While it is true that the NWT is the one primarily used by the Witnesses, they have done and still do use any version of the Bible to teach others the truth of Jehovah God, his Son and his purpose toward mankind.


The 1960 edition
After being familiar with the NWT for 20 yrs and comparing it with some 55 English translations over that same period we can honestly say that it is our opinion this translation is indeed one of the major/main Bible translations of the 20th century as Harper's Bible Dictionary (1985 ed. R.G.Bratcher, The English Bible. pp.266, 267) and The Lion Handbook to the Bible (Lion Publishing, 1976 reprint, p. 79) admits. You would do well to have a copy of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures in your library.

WiredForStereo said...

Did you not read in the post about not telling me that I haven't done my research? You guys are still not paying attention.

You see everyone, Jehovah's Witnesses simply cannot fathom someone looking at the evidence and coming up with a different conclusion than them. They just can't do it. They think that if you really study the Bible you will be a JW, but that just isn't the case.

The problem is, you only conclude what JW's conclude if instead of using your common sense, you use the Watchtower or other society literature. There's no objectivity if you use a study guide.

Come on, you don't think I haven't heard all this stuff already? I haven't heard anything new from JW's since the double monthly Watchtowers. I really beg you, please stop leaving these ridiculous comments calling me names, you really aren't helping your side in this.

Anonymous said...

I agree that the NWT is not the most accurate based on the use of the name Jehova.

But you are flat out wrong on the job of a translator. The translators job is to translate a meaning at a single time for a single generation. Not to get the words right. It is the meaning not the wording that is important.

Languages change and some do so rapidly. This is the fundamental flaw in scripture. This is why the doctrine of scripture and scripture alone is wrong. This is why sincere tradition wins out every time over the written word. And without tradition the scriptures become not only worthless but very dangerous.

The 10 commandments for example command nothing to do with scripture but contain a clear commandment to remember and practice tradition.

WiredForStereo said...

What I'm talking about is writing into the translated text things that are not in the original text.

That's what's wrong.

Anonymous said...

Funny that the old testament speak of gods name and not the new testament. Writers of the new testament quoted from the old testament where gods name was used, so how come they did not use it. Such an important thing as God's name not used in half the Bible? which author does not mention the main character's name in half the book? it is true that the manuscripts that we have does not mention god's name fully, and this is because of tradition but there's undeniable evidence that it was. If it is not used then there's a lot of misunderstanding of the scriptures, which we have today. Finally you should not condemn the NWT because of ur opinion, people who's been studying the bible or their entire lives does not. They are many things that many people don't like in their opinion but don't criticize, so u should not either.

WiredForStereo said...

At what point have I ridiculed the NWT because of my opinion? I'm ridiculing the NWT because of the facts. I could reject it based on the simple fact that it disagrees with the vast majority of all biblical manuscripts, translated and untranslated.

The thing is, MORE people who have been studying the Bible their whole lives reject the NWT than who accept it.

And I'm sorry, but the argument in your final sentence is completely fallacious. You are basically saying "a few other people don't do this, so why do you?" Besides being completely ludicrous in its implications, it is completely false. Everyone criticizes something based on their own opinion.

You're doing it right now. It's your opinion that I shouldn't be criticizing something based on my opinion. Completely hypocritical and falls flat under its own premise.

Anonymous said...

I just want to comment about one of the points you made in your blog as a basis for rejecting the NWT. This has to do with the number. You said: "The thing is, MORE people who have been studying the Bible their whole lives reject the NWT than who accept it." Scripturally speaking, the truth does not depend on the opinion of the majority. To for instance what happened during the day of Noah (I do hope you believe in the Biblical account.) The majority of the people did not believe in the message that Noah was preaching. Noah and his family were in the minority. That is just one example. Let's talk about another matter in with the majority was clearly on the wrong side of the truth. And, unlike in Noah's time, these people have read the Bible all their lives.

I have in mind the majority of the Jewish people including their religious learders during Jesus Christ ministry here on earth. Only a small minority of the people put faith in Jesu and his message. Why was that the case? You might ask. It was simply because what Jesus was teaching did not conform to their view or their opinion.

This brings me to my third and last point. I will like to refer you to one of Jesus' statement in the Sermon on the Mount, as recorded at Matthew 7:13, 14. Jesus made it very clear here the majority of the people are on the wide and spacious road leading to destruction. Whereas the narrow and cramped road that leads to life has only few people walking on it.

The fact of the matter is: the Bible is God message to us humans. It is important that we get the accurate knowledge of the message that God is communicating to us in the Bible. Translating a body of work from one language to another in a way that accurately reflects the thoughts of the original author can be a challenge. This is especially so in the case of the Bible since the message it contains was meant for people of different generations. The usage of certain words does change over time.

In the final analysis, what really matters as far as salvation is concerned is what said, again in the Sermon on the Mount - Matthew 7:21-27. It is the "DOING" not the "KNOWING." It is what we are doing with the knowledge rather than trying to prove ourselves righteous.

S.O. - NY

WiredForStereo said...

I understand your sentiment, but you've not really made a point. You basically said the truth does not depend on how many people believe in it. Sure, that sounds great.

That doesn't mean that the truth is whatever the minority believes. Some things are objectively wrong, now matter who or how many or how fiercely they believe they are right.

There are two billion "Christians" on the planet. Are you saying only Jehovah's Witnesses (of which there are only seven million members) are right? Personally, I believe that God's arms are a little wider open than that.

Anonymous said...

Oh Dear WiredForStereo i am so pleased you are speaking here with such a polite,well-informed manner, very unusual unfortunately to those who perceive themselves as a God's people. So sad, isn't it??? Would love to learn something new about the truth in the Bible, which is obviously not simple thing as i thought. You know what I admire about your searching, that you remind me of well known for Jehovah's Witnesses people from Beroca who "were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word WITH THE GREATEST EAGERNESS OF MIND, C A R E F U L L Y E X A M I N I N G the Scriptures DAILY AS TO W H E T H E R T H E S E T H I N G S W E R E S O " (Acts 17:11 NWT). So here we are, the question is not who knows the truth but what is the truth??? Is reasoning of Jehovah's Witnesses really based on seeing the truth? That's my big concern. So far I have read from your blog JW comments which are rude,offensive,insulting and harmful. Any kind of abuse, verbal, spiritual, etc. is not acceptable! Well done on your researches. God bless! You have strengthened up my faith and it's not credulity, it's heartfelt appreciation of what EVIDENCES indicate not merely what others want it to be so.
Miss M.Tamber

Anonymous said...

I personally find it amazing that M. Tambler was able to use scripture to support her side and 'stereoboy' just wanted to argue with no support from his 'better bibles'. i know that she prayed first and was blessed with holy spirit to correctly defend her beliefs and not just oppose bible truth. "Bear in mind the word I said to you, A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you also, if they have observed my word, they will observe yours also"-John5:20. Jehovah's Witnesses are the ONLY religion that is persecuted as such. It's 'cool' to be catholic, baptist, even Buddhist, but when you are a JW you face many trials and criticism for believing in GOD. Everyone with this attitude; I hope you are right, because when the day of Jehovah comes it will be like a meteor-you will see it coming, but it will be too late to do anything about it. And for those of you reading this blog turn your bibles to Psalm 83:13-18 and you will see why we are called Jehovah's Witnesses. The first step to knowing anyone is to know their name. To 'stereoboy' Were you involved with witnesses on some level and felt that you were treated badly? It seems that your anger is personal an not just about research. Cleanse your heart and remember 2Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, fro reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness." Have a Good Night.

WiredForStereo said...

Well here we go again. I did provide support. Please read the post, I've edited the post more than once and made it as simple as possible to understand. If you have a problem with my logic, than undo it. Don't throw insults and meaningless (to the conversation) out of context bible verses.

Just because you are persecuted for your beliefs does not make them correct. A very erroneous supposition.

I would appreciate it if you would show the same respect to me that I show you and not use pejoratives.

And finally, if you had read other posts, you'd know the answer to that question. Please do your research.

Anonymous said...

Big words.A+. I was not on this sight to research you. That's apostasy. I was doing some work for a return visit, whom asked Which are the most dependable translations and your blog was one of the first ones that popped up. You are very quick to say you were insulted. I honestly was not trying. Sorry you feel that way. You can't handle other people's opinions perhaps which is why you have a blog, it's an excellent way to say everything you want and monitor other's responses. I did notice you have 15 blogs on JWs. The most of any, what JWs say must have your attention and you are fighting to do what you want eventhough your heart condition has changed. I went through that before i became a witness. I did not like hearing that my habits or lifestyle was not pleasing to God and tried even harder to maintain it. But the struggle got harder as my heart started knowing it was wrong and I felt a 'weight' of guilt until I started living in accordance to bible teachings. i am also sorry that you felt the scriptures were 'out of context.' I thought they were VERY relevant to what the blog had turned into. Maybe I am not smart as you are. I will continue to look for a list ranking bible translations for my return visit and i surely will not send the inquiring person here for your say so. Have a good night. I will not bother you again, there is no point is talking to a deaf ear.

WiredForStereo said...

I'm sorry you didn't feel that your life was pleasing to God, maybe it would help more if you let Jesus be your life, and then it could be pleasing to him.

But I guess JW's don't really like Jesus all that much. To them he's just the boss's kid. To me he is Lord of my life. Just a few days ago I built a campfire to the glory of Jesus as my morning devotion. It was awesome.

The ranking list of Bible translations is easy. NWT is directly at the bottom. Any other is better. 237 reasons listed in original post.

I find it interesting how JW's abandon the conversation when they realize I won't be swayed to their view by derision and sarcasm. They also decide not to come back when they decide that I am closed minded or deaf eared simply because I look at the same evidence and come to a different conclusion. Please, challenge my faith, I am very open to changing my beliefs if evidence is presented that sways me. The problem is, no one ever presents any. All I get is "wiredboy" and "apostate" and apparently I can't handle other people's opinions. I just disagree with you, you're the one that can't handle it. It's not like I'm deleting your comment because I don't like it. The ones I deleted before were because the whole thing devolved into a mess and I didn't want the spiritual darkness.

I just want a rational discussion, but I can never get one because the JW's get offended that I'm disagreeing with them. I really am trying to be nice about it. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with you.

BUSTER said...

Is the “New World Translation” (NW), published by the WatchTower & Bible and Tract Society, (Jehovah’s Witnesses), a reputable and accurate translation of the Hebrew & Greek manuscripts?

Because of the NW translation being associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses, the NW is often and readily pointed to as an example of a translation which must have a theological bias. Especially considering that it deviates from the popular King James Translation in its renderings. Some consider it a translation similar to the Book of Mormon.

The attention to bias is heightened by the fact that the theology of Jehovah’s Witnesses does not correspond with the traditional dogma of mainstream denominations of Christendom.

This difference creates a hostile atmosphere in which representatives of that mainstream theology charge that any variation in the NW translation from more familiar translations must serve the ulterior motives of distorting the “truth” toward a particular dogma.

Of all the verses compared, including John 1:1, the NW came out as the most accurate, most honest and least biased 97% of the time. Jason BeDuhn agreed with the renderings in the NW in just about every case where the eight translations were compared.

Accordingly, based upon the seven year study and the caliber of the analyst involved in the study, The New World Translation ranks as the best of all translations of the Holy Scriptures.

That does not set well with most clergy due to their bias against a Christian body that does not agree with their particular traditional concepts of what the bible teaches. Sad, but true, the many professed Christians round about are very discourteous to those who do not share their particular views on what the bible states. As one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and having a personal experience over the past 35 years with the many who oppose our stand on what the bible really teaches, my experience with those we attempt to reason with at the doors is, people who have no faith in God are generally more courteous to one standing with bible in hand than those who tell us they have their own religion and their own bible.

I believe the reason for that, is just as professor BeDuhn stated, it is because the bible we hold in our hand has been maligned by various theologians and clergy of Christendom who have a strong bias toward any theology that differs from their own preconceived concepts of what the bible should teach. They influence their perspective flocks accordingly. Apparently, you are one of those strongly influenced by popular oppinion and what ever is traditional.

Your comments come acrosss as very immature. You try to sound "hip" which may appeal to the young and Gullible. It was difficult to read your rhetoric as it came across as so mis-informed. I enjoyed more the blog's by others.

To help you identify whether you truely are a Christian according to the bible itself, use your own translation, probably the "Living Bible" and see if you see yourself within the verses cited.

James 2:24-26
24 YOU see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone. 25 In the same manner was not also Ra'hab the harlot declared righteous by works, after she had received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? 26 Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

James 2:17-20
17 Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself. 18 Nevertheless, a certain one will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith apart from works is inactive?

SO, THE IDENTITY OF A CHRISTIAN HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH BEARING FRUIT AND THEIR FAITH AS DEMONSTRATED BY WORKS.

What are your works that identify you faith?

WiredForStereo said...

I've already addressed Beduhn, please read the post. He is in the minority, both among secular and religious scholars including Jewish scholars which I have also written about. Additionally, his education is not in biblical translation, so he's not that great of an expert to quote anyway. It's like asking an art major to design a highway.

It's interesting to me that you think I'm trying to be "hip" (where do you get words like "hip" anyway?) tossing insults as if I'm worth nothing to you. So, am I succeeding? Am I "hip"? Do you really think all my Christian conservative friends like my philosophical, political, and doctrinal leanings? I'm more in the minority than you are my good man. But despite my vigorous discussions and disagreements with my brothers and sisters in Christ, they still accept me and love me because I'm not afraid to spell out what I believe and they know that I will always be truthful with them even if in my sinful nature I am sometimes unable to be gentle about it.

"My" translation. Can I only have one? I do from time to time read the Living though I find too much jargon and cliche to be of much use doctrinally. I prefer the ESV, NIV, or sometimes The Message. I read the New Century to my son who can barely talk because it is simple and uncomplicated. I never read the KJV because it is almost as flawed as the NWT, but at least it pronounces what the original text said even though it includes textual insertions from 1500 years of Church history. From time to time, I also read La Biblia de las Americas in Spanish. The Spanish helps me for when I go on mission trips to Honduras and Mexico.

My works? While I completely reject your works based salvation ideology (my Jesus replaces my rags with his blood) I'll play your game just this once.

If I was not committed to following Jesus, I probably wouldn't go to Honduras and do agricultural missions there among people not of my faith, and I probably wouldn't have held those people's heads while the dentist pulled out their rotten teeth. I probably wouldn't devote countless hours to the youth ministry. I probably wouldn't get up at 5:45 AM to go set up for church every Sunday. I might drink a lot, or beat my wife and son. I might cheat on my taxes or not tithe. I might be the vicious son of a bitch that I was born rather than the humble spiritual man that Jesus is making me into. But even if I was the worst of all those things, I could still come to the cross and Jesus would take me in his arms and tell me he loves me anyway. Not because he accepts what I do, but because he died for me. That's the God I worship. It's him that invites me into the kingdom of heaven, not my pointless works.

BUSTER said...

Thank God that Jason Beduhn is not a biblical scholar/translator. Theologians who attempt translation can not escape their religious bias. They transliterate a word here or there to suit their theology. Your particular preference in bible translation, you say, is the NIV rendering. Are you aware that much of that translation is transliterated, it is a formal equivalence translation. It compares with the “Living Bible”, but not quite as bad. These types of translations are guilty of interpretation of a verse rather than the translation of the verse. They actually add the most significant biased material using “added words” or equivalent words that do not agree with the context. The idea of such translations is to tell the reader what they should understand the meaning to be based upon the bias of the translator.

A good example of equivalence or added words is found at: (NIV translation).
(Colossians 1:15) . . .He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn “over” all creation;

The NIV translators replaced the “of” of the phrase “firstborn of creation” with “over”. This is clearly an addition because “over” in no way can be derived from the Greek genitive article ------- meaning “of”. Naturally the translators make this addition on the preconceived, clerical bias basis of doctrine rather than language. Whereas the use of “of” appears to make Jesus part of creation, whereas the theology bias would have Jesus “over” creation. This sets Jesus apart from creation.--------- This is only one example of the problem with clergy or theologians deciding what the Greek should mean.


It is literary courtesy to let the reader know when you have added words and when you have substituted a word that does not correspond with the original language word. The KJV and NASB use italics to mark words added for understanding, to make what is implicit in the original Greek explicit in English. The NW uses brackets to indicate the same thing. This practice is justified only to fill in a gap where the Hebrew or Greek text has no word to express the English meaning or the original is vague or, based upon the context a word can be added to bring out the meaning. The NIV translation makes no attempt to mark added words. Most often these omissions or additions result in the most severe bias. Your choice of the NIV translation can only add to your confusion. ----- The above is only one example of the many atrocities of the NIV interpretation, (not translation).

WiredForStereo said...

I believe I said ESV first, so I guess your whole spiel was for naught.

You see, I use multiple translations, translated by multiple people of different groups, faiths, and traditions. You don't have that benefit. Your bible was written by a handful of persons who to this day are known to be of questionable education. Why should we trust them? They were Jehovah's Witnesses, how could they produce an unbiased bible even by your own logic? You say we are all biased because of our religion, but you claim your "religion" is the most correct of any. How could your translation, written by your own theologians be unbiased?

I'm not confused at all.

BUSTER said...

To address your comment that Jason BeDuhn ----- well, I’ll quote you -----

“He is in the minority, both among secular and religious scholars including Jewish scholars which I have also written about. Additionally, his education is not in biblical translation, so he's not that great of an expert to quote anyway. It's like asking an art major to design a highway”.

No, he is not a biblical translator, he leaves that up to the theologians and clergy of Christendom. He is a Greek scholar of the highest order. He is well respected among Greek scholar’s. Granted, he is not very popular with some Theologians who are also familiar with the Greek.

Jason BeDuhn is an associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University, in Flagstaff. He holds a B.A. in Religious studies from the University of Illinois Urbana, an M.T.S in New Testament and Christian Origins from Harvard Divinity School, and a Ph.D in the Comparative Study of Religions from Indiana University, Bloominton.

He therefore is very qualified to translate the original Greek into the common English. That is what he does, he does not transliterate, he translates the Greek into the most accurate English word that corresponds to the meaning and contest of Greek.

Bye the bye, I have spoke with four people, very reparable people, who watched the very jeopardy TV program that ask the question as to which Bible translation is considered to be the most accurate. The answer was the NWT. The Jeopard Quiz program would not qualify that answer unless they had good resources to prove it. After all there was money involved.

Regarding professor BeDuhn, you and I have no credentials to question his validity as a Greek scholar and very learned in Christian studies. Would you not agree?

WiredForStereo said...

By your own admission, Beduhn is not a translator. Why then should we trust him as one? His education is not in translation, why then should we accept his? Scholar does not equal capable translator. You list his qualifications and degrees, none of which has much to do with translation, and then you say that is what makes him a good translator. Why? That doesn't make logical sense.

Please do not use the word "transliterate" incorrectly, you're doing yourself no favors.

The Jeopardy question did not happen. Anecdotal evidence is notoriously unreliable. Beside people who claim they saw it, answer me these: On what date was it broadcast? Was it Jeopardy or Double Jeopardy? What was the category? What was the dollar amount? What dope of a writer would put such a highly contested question in a national game show? There is never a question on that show that does not have an uncontested, concrete and verified answer. Use your critical thinking skills. I watch the show regularly, I've done as exhaustive of a search as I can for evidence that it ever happened, and it simply didn't. It didn't happen.

Two points. I do have credentials to question whether or not Beduhn is a Greek scholar. It's simple, he's NOT a Greek scholar. He himself doesn't have the credentials, education, or academic accolades. Just because someone has a driver's license, does not mean they can fly a plane. Secondly, if I don't have the credentials to question his prowess as a translator, then you don't have the credentials to assert it. You've got your feet planted firmly in mid-air.

joe said...

Well, Wiredforstereo, I've been quite amazed that you've been clearly insulted by Jehovah's Witnesses. You have shown great restraint and they have come across as rude and unreasonable. You certainly come over as a practising Christian. I am a Witness and I am embarrassed at their responses to you.

Joe

WiredForStereo said...

Thanks Joe, it really is trying sometimes. That's why I quit posting about JW's, it just takes me to a place I don't want to be.

You see, it would be different if Jehovah's Witnesses simply disagreed with mainstream Christianity (of which I disagree somewhat as well.) You must understand, Christians don't think JW's are a cult because they disagree with Christianity or even Catholicism, we think they are a cult because of their cultish behavior. Saying that you and only you have the truth, and that your "organization" is the only source of truth, and that said organization is the only way to heaven, and other related things are what makes a group a cult.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to insult you by calling you cult, think about it from an outside perspective. If you looked at a group whose leaders had seemingly complete control over its members, that they were the only source of God's revelation, might you think it was a cult too? I'm just trying to expose you to how you are viewed.

We love you though. Christians love you. If we didn't, why would we invite you in, offer you a cool drink, and listen to what you have to say? (I've done this many times, more than I can remember.) We're not just trying to convert you. I know you've had a hard day. I know that more often than not people people disrespect you, slam the door in your faces or flat out reject you or maybe even yell at you. I understand these things. I know it's hard. I wish so much for your sake that you didn't have to endure such needless tribulation. I wish so much that you would understand that your salvation is not based on works, but on Jesus' work. Paul made that clear, "so that no man may boast."

I really love you, it's the kind of love that makes a person just want to hug a bunch of people. But I am not a Jehovah's Witness and I never will be. I am a witness of the sacrifice of Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah and redeemer of all men. I know it's probably anathema to quote the pope here, but he said something I just couldn't ignore. He said "You're not a Christian until you meet Jesus."

I think I'll just end with that.

Anonymous said...

Please check your facts. The NW translation ONLY restores the name Jehovah in the New Testament when someone was being directly quoted from the Old Testament. To quote someone accurately....NOTHING should change, right? Jehovah's Witnesses have never hidden nor tried to hide this. Furthermore, I don't see you complaining about the fact that the name Jehovah appears nearly 7,000 times in the Old Testament, and your preferred bible has removed that name. Why does this not bother you, and why do you not hone in on this???? I find that quite irritating.

WiredForStereo said...

Actually, check YOUR facts. Your assertion that Jehovah is only inserted in quotations is entirely incorrect. Please refer to Matthew 1:20. It also occurs in verse 22, and verse 24. So in the first chapter of Matthew, you are already wrong three times. Would you like me to continue on to chapter two?

Your second assertion that inserting Jehovah in the quotations is OK is also incorrect. It matters not what the writer is supposed to have intended, and it also matters not what the quoted text says. To be true to the original text of the writer of the Christian Greek Scriptures, you must translate the original text as it appears in the earliest extant manuscripts. The writers of the NWT have not done that. I don't know how this can be more obvious.

Your third assertion that Jehovah has been removed from the Old Testament in common bibles today is also mistaken. It has not been removed. Rather than risk translating it incorrectly, the translators have rendered it as LORD to remind the reader that it represents the personal name of God. It does not bother me as I would approach the personal name of God with similar trepidation. I would personally rather leave the Hebrew letters completely untranslated in the text, but I'm not the one who translated it. I would never however translate YHVH as Jehovah. The best evidence available does not point in that direction. Just because you disagree on how to translate a word does not mean that your methodology is correct. You should err on the side of caution, but you don't.

I postulate that the reason you are irritated is that I am not similarly offended to the removal of Jehovah as you are. As I have said before, Jehovah has not been removed, it was never in there to begin with. The translators simply chose not to translate it because of its significance.

Every bible has a note in the introductory pages as to what "LORD" means. There are no conspiracy theories, no one behind the scenes manipulating anything and nothing has been removed from the text. Nothing.

I personally find it irritating when commentators continually refuse to do any research as to what I have already written and continue to toe the party line when it comes to these arguments. I reply to the same questions and assertions over and over and over. If you took any time to read comments or other posts, these questions have been answered. All you are able to throw at me are the same tired arguments based on incorrect assumptions and disproven accusations.

But, I am still here. So don't get too irritated, because about this, I have peace that passes understanding and I am confident that the Holy Spirit will continue to give me inspiration. If you have any questions, please keep asking, I will keep replying with as much gentleness and respect as I can muster.

On another note, I found a BeDuhn quote that might interest you:
“It may well be that the NW translators came to the task of translating John 1:1 with as much bias as the other translators did. It just so happens that their bias corresponds in this case to a more accurate translation of the Greek."

Pretty convenient that the bias y'all claim not to have landed you squarely on the right answer, huh?

joe said...

Thank you for your wonderfully constructed reply and it is clear to me that you display much more Christianity than some of my fellow brothers. Unfortunately some of them are simply misguided and do not get the message of true Christianity, whereas I believe you do. A lot of my brothers think it is okay to attack the beliefs and tenets of all other religions and this is plain wrong, wrong, wrong. You have understandably the belief that you have the right religion, just as we do. I definitely will not attack you or challenge your beliefs because that would be arrogant of me. The trouble with some of my fellow witnesses is that they have not grasped the basics of Jesus' teaching - that of showing love to all individuals. Jesus, if on earth today, would not attack you or condemn you but he would rebuke many Witnesses for their misguided attitudes towards you and others, of that I am certain. You truly come across to me as a very warm and sincere person and if I knocked on your door I would be happy to share a cool drink with you. Please continue in you Christian ways because I have the utmost respect for you.

Joe

Anonymous said...

I am not a jw, but they work for me along with other so called Christians and whether jw's bible is wrong or right in translation ,there values and the way they follow there bible and worship God is Far above and beyond any other catholic, Mormon christian of any kind, whether there bible is wrong or not. We know that no bible is right , but how they live is right , so maybe its not the translation that matters but the understanding and following of the bible , No matter what the bible your reading its all about worshipping god and being loyal to him, And refraining from the Devil.If the bible you read keeps you from that and doing that then it is right and as far as my observance in my company of around 200 people and my life of 53 years Nobody is more loyal of there beliefs than Jehovah's Witnesses and I dont see them doing anything wrong that I would consider against the bible of any translation. And if you don't believe that than you don't know any JW's

WiredForStereo said...

I totally agree with you, Jehovah's Witnesses are some of the most morally upstanding people anywhere. However, it is one thing to be sincere, an entirely other to be sincerely wrong.

The one primary thing that they do that is against most every Bible in the world is that they worship a false god. They worship a god they call Jehovah, who according to their religion considers smoking cigarettes a more egregious crime than spousal abuse. They also espouse the belief that there is more than one god, a belief called henotheism not monotheism as they claim.

The Watchtower religion is a perversion of the worship of the one true God. They reinterpret and change history to suit their needs and they cover it all up by being "sincere." Meanwhile they lead millions to a weakened and controlling false salvation.

Anonymous said...

Brothers, please don't post anymore comments. As you can tell, this person doesn't respect and understand the truth.

WiredForStereo said...

I love the truth. The truth is awesome. The truth will set you free. That's why do this. I only wish you knew the truth so that you could be set free. I want as many people as possible to know the truth.

Plus after I post this comment, no one will ever read yours. No one ever does. Thanks for stopping by though. I wish you well. Good day to you.

pat said...

It's a real shame that Jehovah's Witnesses cannot and will not believe that their religion is being run by men and not at all in God's hands. The fact that Jesus was clearly worshipped by men and women when on earth and now also in heaven by angels, should go some way to helping them understand the truth. They were also members of the UN until outed by an English paper, withdrawing their membership the following day. They also were guilty of great hypocrisy in their dealings with brothers in Malawi and Mexico - many in Malawi losing their lives by not buying a government party card (instructed by the Governing Body), whereas in Mexico they were allowed to bribe officials so as not to do National Service, the Governing Body leaving it to their consciences. If any Witnesses can attempt to justify this, let them be filled with shame. Would Jehovah really back this gross hypocrisy? They believe they are in the truth but the sad fact is they do not know the truth of their shameful organisation. I offer no condemnation towards these lovely people, just my sincerity in believing they are sincerely wrong in being led by men who will not tolerate their leadership being brought into question. Witnesses fear being Korah-like in pointing the finger, which the Governing Body and elders capitalise on.

Anonymous said...

The Jehovah's Witnesses love to use so called "Logic". If they can't explain something using scripture to back it up they go to what sounds logical.

If however you try to use logic they call it independent thinking.

They play a game they have been trained to play. They hopscotch around their version of the bible.

Jehovah is a guessed at name, you could say Jihivih and be just as accurate.

Do you honestly think if you were a witness and changed every instance of God's name to Jihivih they would stand for it?

And ask them how they know God appointed the governing body?

You'll always get different answers from different Elders. The bible cannot answer this question so they basically have to have faith that the governing body is appointed by God.

That's faith in men, not God.

The Watch Tower Society is in the place of Christ, Christ comes after. The Watchtower Society calls itself the truth. Jesus called himself the truth.

It's a fear based religion, with Satan and his demons being the most feared if you think about it.

It's ruled by superstition.

Witnesses will always resort to calling you an apostate. They have been trained to do so, this keeps you on the outside, they are insular.

They are wonderful people in the end, misguided by the governing body, who have been misguided by the governing body before them, all the way back to Charles Russel who was a nutbar.

Anonymous said...

Why do the Witnesses not cast out demons in Jesus name?

Why do they not lay on hands and pray for the sick and healing in his name?

Could it be that they don't have the spirit,or the authority of Jesus to do so. And if not then why?

Could it be that they are not from him, nor do they speak for him?

scorpionvice12 said...

i recently started studing the bible which bible is the closed to true form to read and what is hell is it a lake of fire with rooms or is hell sheol does that mean dead in the grave never to rise again

Mike Mitchell said...

Just finished reading that whole thing..what..a...doozy. Many many mistakes our dear brothers who, no doubt had intentions driven by zeal, abused and degraded another follower of Christ with such remorse

This thread seems to be dated as years old and I don't presume I'll receive a response to this post, but I was so moved by this conversation/argument i felt the need to participate.

I enjoy researching and i will continue to do so on the NWT which I enjoy using.

However, please please care about where practices of today and popular thinking are rooted. I very much liked the point about how throughout Bible History, the views of the majority were nearly always misguided.

That's not to say those God who were being taught to worship God were not foolish and imperfect in their own right, Jesus apostles argued about who was greatest among them till the very day Jesus gave his life, showing how even Gods chosen don't have it all down.

said, it's not like all those who are Jehovah's Witnesses are going to be destroyed in a fiery judgement. Its just that a true follower of God, which i presume you are, would ALWAYS want to learn how to serve God more correctly.

Mike Mitchell said...

witnesses avoid harmful substances to their bodies, avoid participating in traditions(holidays) that were inspired by religions and practices that God despises, and try to share a beautiful hope of everlasting life here on our wonderful Earth with anyone who will listen.

Maybe you don't like their Bible, and it's quite possible you have a good reason. But it is evident,to me at least, that the lifestyle that the witnesses teach and strive to achieve as an organization is one that brings great joy to Jehovah's(Yah-weh,Jihivih,God,Lord,Almighty) heart.

So what I'm trying to say is that although they might have put Gods name in too many places in the Bible, but I think it's very possible that they have a more pure Christian religion than the majority of modern day Christianity.